Tzohar; Making Kosher Wine More Accessible (Voices 2)

I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages. If you're driving in your car, please focus on the road ahead. If you're home, grab a bottle of great kosher wine, sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode of the Kosher Terroir. For decades, kosher certification was largely the domain of a few long-established authorities, often defined by formality, rigidity, and certain distance between the certifiers and the winemakers. But recently, something new has taken root in the Israeli wine scene, Sohar. Originally founded to bridge the gap between religious and secular Jews in Israel, Sohar has long been known for its warm, halakhically sound, and inclusive approach to Jewish life-cycle moments like weddings, conversions, and community education. But in a bold and thoughtful move, Sohar has stepped into the world of kosher certification, including over wineries and their wines. To guide us through this groundbreaking moment, I'm joined by someone who's been deeply involved in Sohar's work and vision, Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein. Welcome. I'm very thankful that you're here, because I'm pretty passionate about wine certification and what's been going on in the industry over the years. So, Shalom u'Berha, welcome, especially to the studio. Thank you very much, Simon. It's a pleasure to be here. Tell me a little bit about your background first. I'm going to jump into Sohar as well, but tell me a little bit about where you come from and what you've done and your accomplishments and what have you. So my background, as you can hear from my accent, is obviously American. My parents made Aliyah when I was 11, so the bulk of my life I spent here. Having said that, four years out of those many years since we made Aliyah in 1988, I was the rabbi in Halifax, Nova Scotia, where for the first time in my life, I had an ongoing interaction with non-religious Jews on a day-to-day basis. My community had 175 families, the Orthodox community in name, of which only four were Shomer Shabbos. So that opened my eyes to a new reality, a reality that I didn't see in Yerushalayim and Efrat and other places that I lived, and that is that the Jewish people are much more diverse than you think. The other reality that it opened my eyes to was that Judaism belongs to us all, as we like to say in Sohar. How much you take of it is up to your freedom of choice, but your job is to make it accessible. Your job is to make it with zero bureaucracy, if possible, so that people can access it if they so choose. I returned to Israel in 2007. I spent 14 years training and placing rabbis and sending them to places like Halifax. But three years ago, I started to see something that bothered me greatly. I have been a volunteer for Sohar's marriage program as a rabbi for many years, and the more and more I went ahead and officiated at marriages of non-religious couples, the more I saw that the non-religious couples are having less and less a connection to Judaism. And I felt that after giving a good decade plus to the Jews of the Diaspora, it's time to focus on my homeland, on Israel. Three years ago, I joined Sohar as its North American director, and baruch Hashem, I believe that Sohar continues to do much of the work that you've already described and constantly growing. From marriages, we've grown into many different things. Our recent one-year-old program is – we have our own television channel today called Mashav, which stands for Mashi Yehudibi Yisrael, what's Jewish in Israel. And thank God, it has millions of uniques, a lot of people watching it, and we continue to build. Wow. Tell me a little bit about Sohar from its origin. And I discussed a little bit about what it's based on, but can you give me a little bit more in-depth? Sohar began almost 30 years ago after the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, in which the tensions between the religious and the non-religious were at a sky high. And a bunch of rabbis got together and felt they had to do something. And they decided to start with weddings. As you know, in Israel, the only legal way to get married is Jewish, if you're Jewish, and only through the rabbinate. And we saw that both the process of registration, the khala classes, as well as the rabbi officiating, had a lot to be desired. So we became the proxy of the rabbinate. We said we will register the couples and of course send you the file complete, but we'll do the registration, we'll take care of the khala classes and the rabbi. And we ultimately started with that little project in which both the registration, the khala classes and the rabbi officiating were respectful, dignified, obviously 100% halachic, but friendly, professional, and accessible, not to mention transparent. From that, we, I would say, spiraled off to something that's part and parcel of our land of Israel, and that is that there's many, many people of Russian and former Soviet Union descent that have to prove that they're Jewish when they get married. So we started the department called Shorashim, that's literally like a forensic unit that ultimately checks if people are Jewish. And eventually, when the couples got older, we have a bar mitzvah program, we have a funeral program and holiday celebrations for non-religious, which is mass minyanim on Yom Kippur in places that you wouldn't expect it, country clubs, various places in Tel Aviv, not to mention JCCs, megillah readings around the country, and all night learning on Shavuos. Kashrus came later, but I'm sure we'll get to that. So talk to me about this a little bit. Like getting married is getting married. What's the big deal? I mean, I don't understand, why does somebody need to step in between the rabbinut and people? I mean, in America, as an example, people who are religious, not religious, get married and they're rabbis who officiate, and what's the sort of issues that happen here? So I think you just touched on exactly what we tried to do. And you've mentioned the American model versus the Israeli model. In America, there's freedom of choice. You can go to the rabbi you choose, or you can get married civilly. In Israel, there's only one way to get married, and that is Jewishly and through the rabbinate. So already that choice is taken away from you. Number two, the registration process is such that no one's really competing with you. So it would be, I would say, as warm as going to the DMV or renewing your passport. In other words, at best, no one said anything inappropriate, but it doesn't become a spiritual experience for you to go there. We try to make it into an experience, not to mention, we try to make it as accessible as possible without office hours, say, very rigid from nine to four, but rather try to do everything online and ultimately come into the office once to sign once all the documentation and everything was taken care of via email and WhatsApp, in addition to which we tried to make the registration process personal. So each person that registers through Tzohar gets a personal cell number of one of our office staff, and they just have to call that number. They don't have to call a general number. The second problem was the khala classes. Unfortunately, and this is public, it was on Channel 12 News and other places, it's very difficult to talk about the topic of family purity when you're a religious woman to a non-religious woman. Just to give an example to make it tangible, a non-religious woman comes into a religious woman's home, and the religious woman starts talking to her about what it means to live with a man. Unbeknownst to her, this woman has been living with her boyfriend for the last five years. So the whole conversation is sort of obsolete and not very personal, not to mention the fact that she starts saying things that are very offensive, such as, if you don't keep these laws, you're going to die of childbirth and other such things. And number three, the rabbi. The way basically it worked through the rabbinate, the way I understand it worked, was that basically there's a WhatsApp list and like a taxi dispatcher on the day of the wedding, they say, who's available at eight o'clock to go to this and this hall? And the rabbi with the best intentions comes, does the wedding to the best of his abilities, but he doesn't know the couple. He has no kesher. And ultimately he could say things under the chuppah, exactly, that, you know, on the surface of which are fine, but are very offensive to the couple because he didn't know. If I can give an example from a recent wedding, the rabbi was a very friendly guy. And he tried to make the chuppah very friendly and he made a few jokes and it was good, but he said something there and this is the way it went. He said, you're about to give a ring to your wife. This is a very serious moment. After this, if you want to get out of it, it's only through divorce. This is not fake. This is not a vegetarian barbecue. I said, that's cute. Vegetarian barbecue. That's an interesting analogy. Unbeknownst to this fine rabbi, the couple was vegan. defended them something terrible, the way the story got back to me was that the sister refused to get married by a rabbi because she decided all rabbis are offensive. So basically, we decided that this needs to be fixed. First of all, the registration has to be pleasant. Second of all, the khala classes have to be tailored to non-religious. And thirdly, the rabbi, A, must meet with the couple prior to the wedding in his living room in a restaurant and plan out the wedding together. Number two, the rabbi must arrive on time. You don't know how many complaints there are about rabbis that arrive two hours late. And number three, the rabbi does not take a cent for this service, which is a huge kiddush Hashem in and of itself a sanctification of God's name. But it's a very important moment when they put an envelope in your hand and you said no thank you, mazel tov, we're very, I'm very happy to be part of it. Wow, awesome. So we became the proxy of the rabbinate when it came to marriages, and ultimately all the couples are registered with the State of Israel, albeit they don't step foot in the rabbinate office per se, everything's done by us. So does that, by definition, reduce the level of halachic observance? Absolutely not. How so? We follow all the dictates that the chief rabbinate has put forth when it comes to registration, when it comes to the marriage, and even if we have a different opinion, we are their proxy and we have to follow their rules as per what they decided. So any halachic rule, obviously we follow, but even if it's not halachic, if the rabbinate decided on it, we follow it. You support it, okay. And that's because in Israel, it is illegal to get married any other way and we're a legal organization. So we follow all that the rabbinate says, obviously with sensitivity, with respect, and obviously working out any issues that may come up where couples have sensitivities of sorts, shapes, and sizes. So there are no differences between a wedding that is done with the help of Sohar and a wedding that's done straight through the rabbinate as far as halachic acceptance? As far as halachic acceptance, there is absolutely no difference. The difference is going to be, as we say in the tapestry around the halachic wedding, the way you receive the couple, the way you talk to them under the chuppah, the things you say. Just to give a funny example of a wedding that I did recently, a couple asked me a very innocent question in our meeting prior, and that was, who can stand under the chuppah? I said, whoever you would like, whoever you would like to surround you. They said, the whole family? I said, if that's what you would like. So the wedding comes, and I asked for the ring. And the chassan whistles with his two fingers, and a nice German shepherd comes running up with the ring around its neck. And that German shepherd stood under the chuppah, because from the chattan and khala's perspective, he's part of the family. So that would be a Sohar wedding, but the halachic parts are all the same. Very cool. All right, let me focus back onto wine, which is where I'm coming from with this, with kashrut and wine. I didn't even know about the other kashrut services you provided, but let's focus on wine a bit. What inspired Sohar to enter the world of kosher wine certification? We entered the world of kosher wine certification for the same reason that we entered other things that Sohar does, and that is, we want to increase Judaism in the state of Israel, especially amongst the non-religious. There is a very interesting phenomenon in Israel, which is the following. Many of the wineries are in the periphery, namely not in very remote places, not in very central places. The built-in problem is that they don't have religious people there that can be mashgichim on the wine full-time, not to mention be on staff. And ultimately, if you're going to have a mashgich on staff, it would require two things. Number one, you have to hire him for the entire year, and number two, you have to also, according to other kashrut organizations, make sure that he is the only one that touches the wine, because they go with the point of view that says as follows. Not only could a non-Jew not touch the wine, that's a halacha, but rather even a Jew, albeit not religious, not touch the wine. Because of which, it was too much for them financially, not to mention just tangibly they could not get a mashgiah who lives in their area. So many of these places said, what do we need it for? They remain non-kosher, open on Shabbos, their wine in and of itself, meaning its ingredients, were not necessarily kosher, not to mention all the laws that have to do with the living in Israel, namely the laws of tithing, matrumotu ma'asrot, and orla, not to eat from certain fruits for the first three years or four years, were not being looked after. We came to them and said, we would like you to be kosher. We would like you to be kosher first and foremost because your clientele should be drinking kosher wine. Secondly, you have no real objection to being kosher, it's just a problem that we have to solve together. So we sat down with them and we said, let's find solutions for the problems you have. The first hurdle was to be open on Shabbos. We do not give certification to any place open on Shabbos and Yontif, and therefore that had to be established right from the beginning. Number two, we have to make sure that they're not using forbidden fruit. For example, fruit that grows on a tree for the first three years is called orla, you know how to eat from it. So we had to make sure that they were registered with the Rabbinate's system that actually checks for places and actually has a database to know which vineyards are actually permitted to be eaten from. Number three, the ingredients, obviously, things that go into wine production, such as the barrels. If I can just bring up an example, the barrels have to be barrels that are kosher for Pesach all year, not barrels that were used with chametz, have a certification on it, and other things that go into the wine. So basically, after speaking to them, it came down to one issue. When you make wine, obviously, like you make a chicken soup, sometimes you have to stir it, you have to do things. And it came down to the issue of, can a non-religious Jew touch the wine? So truth be told, today with machinery, it's very rare that anyone touches the wine. But we had to insist that no non-Jews are involved in the production of wine, Jews only. And number two, we did permit what we call a non-religious Jew to touch the wine. We based ourselves on the fact that, first and foremost, on a general level, we in the religious Zionist community consider a non-religious Jew a Jew. In other words, we count him for Herminian. We give him an aliyah in Shul. So for all states and purposes, he's a Jew. Number two, it happens to be that in the laws of wine and kosher winemaking, the code of Jewish law did not quote the opinion of the Rashba that says that even a non-religious Jew should not touch the wine. He did not quote that in the code of Jewish law. So it's not a halacha that's clear cut. Now, obviously, kosher organizations have different policies on that point, and we respect them all. But we felt that we can gain a lot out of this little, I wouldn't even call it a leniency, because the code of Jewish law doesn't even posk in it. First of all, the places will not work on Shabbos. Second of all, the wine in and of itself would be kosher in all its ingredients, it'd be under supervision. Number three, all the laws of tithing would be looked after. The only price, quote unquote, you may pay is that the wine may be touched by a Jew, albeit a non-religious Jew. And there's many, many that say it's not a problem. And obviously, we relied on them, because we gained so much by doing it. I kind of feel that the whole issue of holding a person who touches the wine, especially within a winery, and in many instances, this is the winemaker himself that's held to this standard. Winemaking is an art form. People who make wine are extremely hands-on people. And to tell them that you can't touch the wine, and what you need to do is talk through a mashkiach to do all of the steps. Many of them are in agreement. Some of them get so turned off by the whole process that they basically throw up their hands and say, I don't need this, I'm a winemaker, I've studied long and hard to be a winemaker, and I'm a Jew, and I'm insulted that people consider me as if I'm a pagan, or what have you, touching my wine. So what they do is they end up creating this chumrah, and apparently it wasn't so, it's only been so since the early 80s that the Rabbinut has even held this opinion. There's a chumrah that they've established. order to do this. And in doing so, what they've done is they've taken wines that are halachically kosher and pushed them into an area of them being doraita not kosher, based on the Torah not kosher, because the winemakers now don't follow anything. They actually make wine on Shabbat or they harvest grapes on Shabbat or they do other things that they won't follow orlah. In doing that, you're taking something that would have been kosher, that you held them to a chumrah, and now the wine is not kosher doraita. And it just bothers me because there are so many Jews in Israel who drink wine, including some Orthodox Jews, many Orthodox Jews, who basically say, no, the wine is, you know, these are made by Jews, they're kosher. And actually they don't know the details about how the wine was made, so we're actually causing a problem for so many more Jews by creating this chumrah that I really believe that it's, I know there's always a desire to go ma'alim b'kodef, to go up in kedushah, to try to raise the level or raise the need to provide kosher services. But I just feel like this is such an important element in today's world. And there's so many wineries that I believe would become doraita kosher, officially kosher. And it's not just doraita, I'm not saying that Sohar's wines are not doraita kosher, or even not rabbinically kosher. That's the question I have is, I just, I hope that they receive the same acceptance as all the different hashkakhot, all the different certifications that come on wines, in order to establish, you know, them as a real mover within the Israeli wine industry, and also in the global wine industry. So I just want to make a distinction on the three things that you just said. The first thing was, I think, 100% accurate. Sometimes a chumrah, as the Gemara says, it brings you to a kula. So you take a chumrah, that even a Jew that touches the wine, albeit a non-religious Jew, makes the wine not kosher, and that brings to kulas. We're open on Shabbos, we don't care about tithing. Now the wine is 100% not kosher, according to everyone. So that's a very good example. And that's what we tried to fix. You also mentioned the Talmudic term of ma'alin bakodesh, which is, I think, the result of what we did. We actually brought up the level of all these boutique wineries to be kosher, closed on Shabbos, and their wine in and of itself now is under supervision. We obviously have that problem of a mashkiach living there, so he comes in from time to time, obviously. But we also insisted on cameras being put in, so that we can be supervising it, even if we're not physically there. So I think definitely ma'alin bakodesh was actually achieved. Your gold. We have brought up the wine to a level of kiddusha. And indeed, I think that wine is very different than every other beverage. As you know, halachically, wine has its own bracha, berei prei hagefen, the only beverage that you don't make a shahakol on, basically. Wine is used for sacramental purposes very often, not to mention at parties and other places. It's not just another food item. And we have to increase the level of kosher wine in a country where the majority of people are, thank God, Jewish. And therefore, we tried very hard to bring up standards, not bring down standards. And one of the ways is exactly what you just described. Bruch Hashem. Thank you. I am so happy I got you to come to this podcast. But I'm even happier because I honestly didn't know where to turn. And then I heard from somebody else, specifically about Sohar's program. And I said, wow, I knew about your weddings. I have had some children who have been married under Sohar. And I'm just so thrilled about the whole wine certification move. I really am. Thank you. We actually are very proud that the result of the fact that we got into this industry is that there's more kosher wine, less violation of Shabbos, and most importantly, more and more people can now enjoy the beauty of one of the seven species that Israel was blessed with. And that is, of course, grapes, or to be more precise, the wine produced from grapes. How does Sohar's philosophy in halakha and community engagement translate to your approach to kosher supervision for wine? I believe that our approach in kosher supervision is exactly the same as in other places. And that is that we have to have four things that go into it. Number one, it has to be halakhically 100%. Obviously, without that, we're not a rabbinic movement. And indeed, I always tell rabbis in training, you have to be able to say no sometimes. That's what makes you into a rabbi, not just yes. Number two, professionalism. The people in front of you don't know a thing about you or about Judaism sometimes. And if you act unprofessional, then that can make and break it. Number three, transparency. They have to know exactly what they're getting. They have to know exactly what it entails to make a winery kosher. They have to know exactly how much the price is for this service. And there could be no shtick, quote unquote. It has to be 100% transparent. And I'll add, consistent. Namely, it can't be that you're charging one winery one price, and another winery, another price. And finally, and this is very important, I would call it in Hebrew, yachas ishi, or in English, personal touch. Each winery, as you said, each winemaker, is very proud of his wine. He's very proud of his production. You have to be sensitive to his personal needs, not negotiating halacha one ayodah, and at the same time, not negotiating menshlachkeit. The best compliment I ever heard about the koshers of Tzohar was from someone that didn't know I was associated with Tzohar, and I just asked him, how do they treat you? And he said to me the following. I'll say it in Hebrew and translate. He said, heim migiim yachasit harbe, vehen meod nechmadim. They come often, and they're very nice. First and foremost, they come often. There's no kosher supervision without supervision. You have to come often. We developed an app system that's GPS sensitive, so we know exactly how many times a meshkiach comes into any of our establishments per week, per month, etc. And number two, you can be nice at the same time. Hello, how are you? How's your kids? I'm not just here to give you a service. I'm also a mensh, I'm a fellow Jew, and I care about you like any other fellow Jew. I'm not just here to catch you breaking the rules, which is another whole thought process. You're 100% right. I actually just came from a restaurant here in Yerushalayim under our supervision, and I met with the chef, and I asked him, and he said to me that one of the things he saw with Zohar is that he always thought the rabbinate's synonymous word was no. I don't know if it's true or not. I don't know, because I never dealt with the supervision of the rabbinate. I wasn't a restaurant owner, but that's his perception. And he said, with Zohar, the answer always was, let's work with you. And not everything he wanted, he got. Ultimately, it was, what are your wants? What are your quests? How do you make a successful restaurant? And how do we ensure that it remains kosher at the same time? So you brought up before that one of the things I've taught my mashkichim is that they need sometimes to say no. And that's an important thing. But I'll be honest, it's so easy to say no. It takes thought, and I've only seen, you know, I've seen the highest level rabbinim. They're the ones who come up with kulas, leniencies, that work incredibly well, because they're thoughtful about what they've done. It's really important. Anybody can produce a book that on each page it says, no, no, no, no, no. The trick is to be able to say yes, and have it be halachically acceptable and reasonable. As many rabbis have said, you don't have to learn Torah to say no. You have to learn Torah to know when to say no, and when to say yes. How does Zohar train or select its mashkichim for work in the wine industry? Very carefully. They have to go through training with us. They can't just become a mashkich. Obviously they have to go through a proper course. to become a Mashkiach in general, and then for wineries in particular, there's a whole protocol that every winery has to follow. And ultimately they have to know it well, and they have to know how to implement it in each winery. So obviously both the training, not to mention the preconceived knowledge of Kashrus, together with the specific training of Tzohar, would make them a proper Mashkiach on our behalf. In addition to the Mashkiach, we have supervisors over Mashkiachim. So for every area, there's a supervisor over the Mashkiachim, who both is in touch with the Mashkiachim, and the places, to make sure that everything is working. Area means physical location area? We divide Israel into locations. And basically we have, as we call them in Hebrew, supervisors over areas. What kind of relationship does Tzohar aim to build with the winemakers and the winery staff? We would like the winemakers and the winemaking staff to feel that we are there as their partners. They have to make the best possible wine, and we have to make it the most kosher. And therefore we're not at odds with each other, quite frankly. We fill in each other's gaps. We give the Kashrus supervision, and they give the wine. And I think that is the relationship we would like to have. In other words, they would welcome us in, they would say, you're helping us by making it kosher, and we're helping them by making their wine more available to a wider crowd. Because now it's kosher, many more Jews can drink from it. Many boutique wineries complain about bureaucracy or high fees with traditional certifications. How does Tzohar address those concerns? You did, you talked about it a little bit, but can you hone in a little more about that? We like to say in Tzohar that we like to be 100% halachic and zero bureaucracy. In this perspective, I think that any one of our establishments that are under our Kashrus meets with our staff. We sit down together and we explain to them in a very transparent way. We looked at your facility, this is what needs to be done. First and foremost, if it was not kosher, we have to kasher it. That's also something that we'll have to go into it. Second of all, you'll have to be closed on Shabbos, third of all, there'll be supervision on the ingredients you use and whatnot. These are the things that come out, but I think that I haven't yet heard a story of a winery that had a problem with the actual criteria or the rules. That's never the problem. The problem usually is the way the rules are conveyed. When you come and you say, this is the way it is, and there's no negotiation, and take it or leave it, and you need me more than I need you, there's no real willingness on the other side to sit with you. But if you come in and you say, I'm here to give you a service, and I'm happy to present it to you, there's much more of a willingness to listen and, thank God, in many places to implement it. The gain from the winery's perspective is amazing. They now have opened up a whole new clientele, which hopefully will increase the value of what they sell and what they're able to offer. 100%. What do we gain? We gain less Shabbos violation in the State of Israel and more kashrus. From that perspective, is there a question about offering Sohar-certified wines in restaurants that are certified by other hashkachot? Obviously, it's up to every hashkacha, and they can go right ahead and make a decision. Have you encountered that? Have you encountered anything up to now? I have not encountered it, and I'll just give an example. I do fly in my position a lot, and therefore I frequent the frequent fire clubs in the airport. There is wine available to people coming in. Not all of it is what we call mevushal, namely cooked wine, which anyone can touch. It's actually wine that would be subject to not having a non-Jew pour it for you, and it's served. From this perspective, obviously it's under supervision of whatever kashrus organization it is. They have no problem with it, so it's hard for me to believe that they would have a problem with our wine, which is basically the same thing but minus. What do I mean minus? It's less of a problem because, as I said earlier, A, there's not a lot of touching the wine when you're making it. B, the actual wine bottle that you get may not even be something that was ever touched by anyone, let alone a Jew that was not religious. So it's hard for me to believe there would be an issue. I have not heard of an issue. Now I want to be very clear. If you want to be machmir in your own home and say, listen, I don't want wine that was touched by a non-religious Jew to come into my home, that is your prerogative, and God bless you. We have to, in Sohar, not just think about a home. We have to think about the state, and we have to ask ourselves, how do we make more kashrus in the state? So if it's impossible, it's impossible. What are you going to do? We can't give kashrus to pig, whether we like it or not. But if it's possible, within halachic frameworks that we're comfortable with, not just that there's a mat here somewhere, there's a kula that we're going to take out of a drawer, if this we feel is ikar hadin, as I said, the Shulchan Aruch does not pasken this particular halacha in the halachos per se, then I believe we have not only a right, we have an obligation to increase kashrus in the state of Israel. Shkoch, it's amazing. As far as I'm concerned, it's absolutely amazing. Have you received any feedback from wineries about how this differs from their past experiences with other certifiers? Some wineries were never kosher, because they found out what it entails, and they said, forget it, what do I need this for? Other wineries did get back to us, they were previously under, and it was much more of a process and expensive and whatnot, and they felt that working with Sohar is indeed working with someone. Namely, they are working with an organization that says, we would want to work with you to make you successful. Now sometimes, if you're going to say, listen, I'm going out on Shabbos, and it's my day to harvest the grapes, and unfortunately we can't give you a kashrus, we can't allow that. On the other hand, there was not only a willingness to work with us on their side, they felt there was a willingness for us to work with them. We want you to be successful, we just want it to be kosher, and so far the feedback has been wonderful. And not to mention the fact that if I can quote one of my dear friends, he said, because of you, I have 300 more establishments I can eat in, in Israel. And that in and of itself is important. In other words, 300 places that for reasons that are much bigger than this podcast did not, and were not kosher, are now kosher, after going through a process of closing on Shabbos, koshering their establishment and whatnot. And thank God, there's more places to eat and there's more places to drink wine around the State of Israel. You're mentioning about how people approached winemakers in the past. There's a very important thing that you didn't mention. It's not only how you were willing to talk to them and partner with them, it's that you even recognized them as being Jews. And that's something that's huge. I'll be honest, when I go into a restaurant and a young wine sommelier or waiter walks over to me and says, you know, like, look, you've ordered this wine. I'm not Shomer Shabbat. Do you want to open the bottle yourself? There is no better opportunity that I feel that to be able to say to them, you know, I'm not a better Jew than you. We're both Jews. I thank you very much for asking me the question, because I know some people would be sensitive to it. But as far as I'm concerned, it would be a privilege for me, as long as you're a Jew, to open my wine for me. Because as far as I'm concerned, I'm no better Jew than you are. I would love you to become more religious. I would love you to become Shomer Shabbat and please God in the future you will. I don't want to stand in your way of doing that. But I also want you to know that I respect you as a Jew. So I want to actually respond to what you just described so beautifully, which happens in so many places around Israel. I think that it's wonderful that there's a dialogue. In other words, a non-religious Jew says, are you more comfortable if you open the wine? And you say to him, no, actually, it's okay with me if you open the wine. I think that the fact that there's a dialogue is much better than what we see on the news most of the time, where people are each other's heads and never talk to each other. Now I want to be honest, if a family at a restaurant is offered, would you like to open the wine? And they say yes, then no harm done. The harm is done when the opposite happens, namely, there's wine on the table and you say to your non-religious guests, hands off, I'm the only one that's going to open the wine. You are offending them something terrible. And from that, chumrah will come much more hatred later, just to give you a halachic precedent of why. I just said. It was a great Jew that lived not far from where we're sitting, Rav Shlomo Zalman Oyerbach, who was asked the following question. You invite someone to paint your house or to fix something and he's non-religious. Do you offer him a drink? The problem is he's going to take a drink without making a bracha. So maybe you are, in essence, violating the law of you're putting a stumbling block in front of a blind person or you're helping to do an aveira by offering him a drink. Rav Shlomo Zalman Oyerbach's answer was look at the bigger picture. The bigger picture is there's a bigger stumbling block and that is he's going to say to all his friends when I go to religious homes they don't even offer me a cup of water. Which means he's going to hate religion, he's going to hate Torah, he's going to hate religious Jews. So you gain much more than you lose and that's what Rav Shlomo Zalman Oyerbach poskined in that particular instance. You can agree, you can disagree, but that's what he poskined. I believe that when you tell a non-religious Jew you're not Jewish enough to touch my wine, you are taking into your hands a very big responsibility that you are pushing this person far further than where he was. Therefore, I think that sometimes, indeed, if it's a non-Jewish waiter we have no choice. That's the halacha and whether we like it or not we will go ahead and surrender to halacha. But when it comes to a Jew, a fellow Jew, albeit non-religious, I believe that throughout the generations rabbis have given their opinion on it and there's a lot to rely on, just like we rely on it for many other things. And I can just very easily quote, we make him part of a minion, we call him up to the Torah, we don't believe he's a non-Jew when it comes to the laws of a Reuven, and I'll just put another one on the table since we just came through the holiday of Pesach. I don't know many Jews that refrain from inviting non-religious Jews to their weekday yom tov meals. There's a prohibition, rabbinically, to invite a non-Jew to a weekday yom tov meal because maybe you're going to add food for him and you're only allowed to cook for Jews on yom tov. I don't know of anyone, anyone, that said, well, if he's non-religious he's considered like a non-Jew so therefore I can't invite him except for Shabbos Chol Moed or if like Shvi Yisho Pesach came out on Shabbos. I've never heard such a thing. So I never understood how… I'm almost afraid to broadcast this because I'm telling you some people will say, wow, I never thought about that, we can't invite these people anymore. I hope they won't invite them. I hope not. I hope the opposite will happen. I hope the opposite happens. Namely, we consider them Jews for all states and purposes, including when it comes to wine. Now you have to remember, wine is not an isrda or raita, a biblical prohibition. That's only if the wine was used for sacramental purposes, for idol worship. It's an isrda rabbanan for a non-Jew to touch your wine. That's called stamyenim. This is already three times removed. So being machmir on this would have terrible ramifications on having, unfortunately, a situation where much more is lost down the line. Now let's just think about this for a moment. If we're going to consider a non-religious Jew, like a goi, excuse me for the expression, and we're not going to invite him for a weekday yontav meal, you are not exposing him to the beauty of the seder or to the beauty of your sukkah or to the beauty of your milechik meal on Shavuos, if that is your custom, whatever it might be, or to the beauty of a Rosh Hashanah dinner. You understand, you are closing Judaism for this fellow Jew and all for a chumrah. I don't think it's worth it. Now if a family in and of itself wants to be machmir and they go to the store and they buy only mevusha wine, previously cooked wine, gezintahet, as we say in Yiddish, let them do what they would like to do that does not have a terrible influence on the rest of the state. But as an organization that's national, we have to look at the kashrus of the state, not just the individual, and say, how do we increase more love for Judaism and more kashrus in the state of Israel? And that's what we try to do even within the confines of wineries. Under the wineries that you provide certification, do any of them create mevusha wines? I'm assuming they do. Actually, it's interesting. When I was serving as a rabbi in Canada, as I mentioned earlier, it seemed like most of the wines that were available were mevusha. And for good reasons, because many people had non-Jewish help at home, and ultimately that solved a lot of problems. In Israel, thank God, in a Jewish country, I would say if you go into any supermarket at that level, not even to a wine store, I'd say it's pretty equal in terms of mevusha, non-mevusha. I don't do the shopping, but I put away the shopping. And many a times I see that in terms of our wines, it's mixed. The certifications in America have a knee-jerk reaction that no matter who's touching the winer, the only wine they will allow at an event, the only wine they will allow in a restaurant or in a public situation is mevusha wine. I've spoken directly to certifications in America where we've wanted to do an event, a very special event, and they've been high-end wine events. And I've said to them, there will be a yeshiva boy who comes in, he won't let that bottle out of his hands, we're not reusing these overnight, this isn't a situation where we've got to store it in a restaurant overnight or what have you, and there's questions as to what happens to the bottles then, this is a situation where this, from Jew, opens the bottle, pours it for people, never puts the bottle down, nobody else touches the bottles, okay? No, absolutely not. We do not want to set a negative precedent. And I'm like, okay, how do you get to that stand? I really, I was a rabbi only for four years, and in Canada, and I really didn't deal with kashrus on this level in America, so I don't know what you're dealing with, and you know better than me, and maybe there's concerns there that there aren't here, but I will tell you one thing about America that's different from Israel. In America, you can make rules and regulations that does not influence all of America. It influences the people that eat your kashrus, or your community. In Israel, you're no longer talking about a community, you're talking about a country, and therefore decisions like that will have influence, not just on what's going to be at the wine event, but it's going to have influence on the Jewishness of the country. So that's something we have to consider here that we don't necessarily consider there, and therefore, I don't know America better, I'd never give kashrus in America, I take your word for it that that's what they say. In Israel, I could tell you that if that would be the policy, you would ultimately have terrible ramifications on the Jewishness of the country, on the relationship of non-religious Jews to their Judaism and to their religious Jewish counterparts, and it could be a terrible thing. As I said earlier, sometimes a chumra ati liyadei kula, and therefore we have to think of those things. Well, there are some certifications that in Israel are now requiring that if something is poured by the glass rather than the bottle, that those bottles are not, they must be mefuchal. So there are certifications within certain restaurants that are now requiring that. Every certification can do what they really think, and I'm sure you'll invite them here, and they'll explain what they're doing. We can explain what we're doing because we saw too many wineries that are not kosher, and as the saying goes, not for the right reasons. Meaning, if they would come and say we have to work on Shabbos, and we have to be open on Shabbos, then we'll have to throw our hands up and say I'm sorry. But if they said this was the reason, we found solutions for it. And as I said, the gain became bigger than the loss. If there isn't even a loss, if you call it a loss, then the gain was much bigger. In other words, now they're kosher in terms of both ingredients and the laws of tithing. They're also not working on Shabbos, and the one thing is they're not keeping a chumrah that's not even paskend in the Shulchan Aruch. Okay. How does Sohar handle more complex kosher issues such as mefuchal, non-Jewish involvement in processing in Shemitah year wines? We have a very strict protocol about how do we give certification to wineries, and we sit down with them and we explain basically everything in a seven-year process. You have to remember that the seven-year process in Israel is such that ultimately there's different tithing given the third year, the sixth year versus the other years, not to mention the Shemitah year in and of itself. And obviously we have to be with our hands on the ball. In other words, we have to come along and say, listen, in a year from now at Shemitah, what are you planning to do? Are you going to do Heter Mechira? Are you going to do Otzar Beitin or whatnot? In addition to which, which we have to make sure that even the fourth year, what's called Netarivay, is looked after. Obviously, all those things have to be thought out, and I could tell you that the protocol is nine pages long. It's explained very explicitly to every winery owner, and obviously, we, as Tzohar, help them to maintain everything, but most importantly, you have to be as transparent and as clear that you're about to go into a new industry, quote unquote. You're gonna be kosher. That means the value of your wine will go up, but it does require proper preparation, and ultimately, our mashgichim have to be with their hands on the bowl because at the end of the day, any kashrus, you can call it any name you wish, is only as good as the mashgich in the field. If he's not doing his job, then you can throw that hashgacha down the drain. If he's doing his job, then you can eat kosher food. It all comes down at the end of the day to the mashgich, and therefore, that mashgich has to be the right person, trained properly, and know how to logistically ensure that everything coming out of this winery is kosher. You do use cameras? Yes. Wow, so tell me a little bit about that. So because we're talking about many boutique wineries in the periphery, it's just such that people don't necessarily live around there. So for a mashgich to come every day and to see what's happening is just physically very, very taxing and almost impossible. So therefore, we insisted on putting in cameras with a proper kartissikaron, I'm forgetting my English, a memory stick that's big enough, obviously, so that the mashgich, even from the comfort of his home, can see what's happening every day. For example, after Shabbos, he can look and see that if on Shabbos, God forbid, anyone was working. If so, we will, of course, take away our koshers. Not to mention the fact that, obviously, because of the laws of tithing and whatnot, there could be a situation where you have a certain part of the winery that's under one rules and regulations, like the year of Neter Revi does not require a matrimod and masfotzeh, and another part that does. You have to make sure nothing was mixed up. Everything's with a seal and whatnot. So those cameras help us tremendously to overcome the geographic distance from where we are. And obviously, the mashgichim are told, not just the cameras are there for show, they're not wallpaper. You should look at them from time to time to see what's happening. Physical visits are happening as well, but the cameras are there all the time. Now, I'll be honest, when there's a camera, you're a deterrent, it's a deterrent, meaning I give the benefit of the doubt to every winery, they're gonna follow the rules and regulations, but the fact that there's a camera there is really up to you. If you're doing nothing wrong, you can care less that there's a camera going ahead and filming you. If you're worried, then you're gonna be even more worried if there's a camera. Have you found anybody trying to sneak around you, around your halachot, or around your certifications that you've defined purposefully? I mean, I know there are people who make mistakes non-purposefully. Obviously, within the history of Tzar certification that started since 2018, there were places that we had to take away kashrus for various reasons. And part of the time, it was because they were not following the rules and regulations that we set forth. We gave them a warning, they didn't listen, and look, at the end of the day, we're taking upon ourselves what we call in yeshivish achrayus, in English, responsibility. People are drinking wine because of you. If you are not comfortable with the winery because of what you just described, then unfortunately, we have to take away the kashrus. Now, I'm not talking about mistakes. Mistakes happen in every kashrus organization. There's no such thing as void of mistakes. Never happened. The question is always two. Number one, was it a mistake? And number two, how did you fix it so it doesn't happen again? I'll just give you an example. I happened to be on Pesach Ischallah in residence in a hotel. This year, as you know, Erev Pesach was on Shabbos. One of the solutions for hotels where no chametz were brought in was to use egg matzah for Friday night and Shabbos morning up until the time you can eat chametz, because Ashkenazim at least consider it partial chametz. I'm Sephardi, so I have no problems with it. You're Sephardi, so you have no issues. I have no issues. So you could have eaten it until the 10th hour. So we had a mixed crowd. So we didn't serve, obviously, egg matzah on Pesach. Well, lo and behold, one morning at breakfast, there was egg matzah. Now, it happened to be discerned in its color, so we knew it was egg matzah. I wasn't in charge of the kashfus at this hotel. There was another organization involved, but I saw it. I alerted the mashkiach. He right away got his staff to take it away, put out the regular matzahs, make sure those matzahs were not put out again until the end of Pesach, and as the saying goes, he did his job properly. He was on the ball, took care of it. That's a mistake. It's very innocent. The matzah looks like matzah. What do you want from the poor workers? The problem is gonna be if the egg matzahs are put out, the mashkiach is nowhere to be found, not to mention the fact that the staff does nothing about it because then a mistake will breed bigger mistakes. But if they see, wow, mashkiach's on the ball, he knows what he's doing, then these mistakes don't happen. In the Israeli army where I served, there used to be a line. Every time they told you an order, they would say, hapkudot nichtevu bedam. In other words, because someone was killed, we made an order. What was the order for us? That no one else would get killed. So for example, when you were doing rifle practice and you were practicing to shoot a gun, they always told you, whatever happens, always point the gun straight. Never move to the right or left because who's in the right or left? The human beings. Always point the gun straight, even if there's no bullets in it. Just regulate yourself to do it because obviously there was once a time with a loaded gun that someone went ahead, turned to the side, and maybe killed someone. That almost happened to me, by the way, by someone next to me who didn't listen, pointed his gun towards me, and asked a question to the commander. The commander was on the ball right away, kicked the gun such that it wouldn't point at me and saved my life. The gun was loaded, by the way. So I had the bench go, Mel, as you can well imagine, and ultimately, that is a very good example. Mistakes happen. But the question is, do you learn from your mistakes or not? So sometimes it's a mistake, and we obviously will take care of it, but sometimes a mistake and another mistake and another mistake will require us to take away the kashrus. We're not happy about it, but it does happen. We do have what we call a very, very updated list on our website about which establishments are kosher and which are not, and it's updated daily. In other words, if something was taken off, we will make sure to take it off our website, so there's no misunderstandings. If it's not under the kashrus of Tzohar, it's not under the kashrus of Tzohar anymore. If it is, it's on the list. How many restaurants? We have over 350 establishments under our kashrus today. Have you seen a growing demand among winemakers to consume, and customers, for Tzohar's kosher wine certification? In general, I have. I can't go ahead and say this year was this and that year was that, but the fact is that any winery knows that wine is unique in two ways. Number one, if it's not kosher, then you're losing clientele. Part of any trip up north, for example, is for any family, one day we go to a winery, because that's where a lot of wine grows. So God willing, the war will be over, the whole north will be open, there'll be many more wineries that can open their doors. Ultimately, wine is indeed something that any winery would like to make it appeal to as many people as possible, not just to a specific clientele. So therefore, I do see a demand that grows, because people say, hey, we want our wine to be kosher, so that during the week, from Sunday through Friday, we can open it up to every Jew, and not just to a segment of the Jewish people. How do you see Sohar's certification affecting the international kosher wine market, especially among Zionist and modern Orthodox consumers? I think in general, competition is only good for koshers. Competition is good for marriages that are Jewish, competition is good anywhere. Monopoly is not good. Unfortunately, when you have a monopoly, you never try to get better, because why should you? At the end of the day, you're the only act in town. As the old saying goes, you need me more than I need you, I don't need to do anything for you. You brought up at the beginning of the conversation how in America, it's so simple, you go to a rabbi that you choose, and you get a wedding done, because you have choice. In Israel, by definition, you don't have choice. That is not a very good thing to have. I think that competition is only good for koshers. The more there's competition, the better each kosher's organization becomes in two ways. Number one, in what we call the customer service to the establishment. The nicer they are, the better they are, and number two, to the consumer. In other words, consumers that are concerned about koshers and like to know what are they eating, the more there's competition, the better it is. On our Teudah, in the land of Israel, it says explicitly, not just it's under the supervision of Tzohar, in a restaurant, by example, it will tell you exactly the standards we're using in terms of fruits and vegetables, where they come from. leafy vegetables, which is an issue in Israel because of bugs. Pishul akum, which means food cooked by a non-Jew, that's a halacha. Which shitta do we use? There's two shittas, basically, if I can simplify it. One is that you just have to make sure that the fire is lit initially by a Jew, and that takes care of all the cooking of the day. That's the Ramaz shitta, the Shulchan Aruch, the Rav Yosef Karu is more machmir. Svarti, this is the downside of the Svarti side. The Svarti says that they have to put it on the fire and be much more involved. Now, at the end of the day, when you come into a restaurant, if you're concerned about kashrus, and to G'dav Tzohar, it says exactly what you're eating, you can make an informed decision, do you want to eat there or not? That's the way it should be? I can ask, can the cook please put my breast of chicken onto, can the muskiyach put my breast of chicken onto the fire, rather than just have it be lit? And I'll just tell you something personal that I think is very important. This is just my point of view as a rabbi, not, I'm not representing Tzohar on this. The more people are involved in what they eat, the more learned they are, the better it is for the Jewish people. If not, we become like trained monkeys. I'll give you one example that bothers me to this day. It's a small example. You know, during COVID, we had to make a lot of changes. Amongst them is, we couldn't daven in shuls initially, and then they allowed minyanim, but outside, not inside. So as you can well imagine, where I live, where there's a lot of religious people, we made a lot of minyanim in parking lots. So there is a question, Friday nights, if you daven in what we call a non-permanent minyan, do you say the bracha me'ein sheva after the amirith? Not going into the whole question, do you say it or not? So there's different sheetot. So I was sort of the rabbi at this minyan, and I said not to say it. And I said, the reason is, because once COVID is over, we're all going back to our shul, so by definition, this is not a permanent minyan. There's different sheetot on it, and it's fine. So one Friday night, when we started out, I wanted to explain to the people, we're gonna skip a part of the siddur. I don't want you to think we ripped it out. I want you to explain it. So I started to explain it, and someone there said, in Hebrew, good enough, the rabbi paschend, we don't need to know the reason. I think that's a problem. I think that brings down the level of the Jewish people. We all become trained monkeys, as opposed to informed about what we're doing. When you learn it, it's more substantial. So if you come into a restaurant, and you see this whole list, and you as a sefaradi say, whoo, they follow the ashkenazim, and you go up to the chef, and you say, can you put my chicken breast on the fire for me? And he says, no problem. No, to the mashkiach. You say to the mashkiach. What are you basically doing? You made your meal into a religious experience. You're much more involved in your religion. And that's what we try to do. And I think that the price, quote unquote, that we're happy to pay, is that more and more Jews in the state of Israel are involved in their religion because of the Kosher of Zohar, and because of the fact that we put it out front and center. How do you see Zohar certification involving international wine market, kosher wine markets, and what's your plan? I mean, is there a plan to try to extend the certification of Zohar outside of Israel into international markets? At this point, Zohar only works within Israel. We don't have too much outside of Israel. There are various ideas for the future. I will say that according to the laws right now in the state of Israel, there's a lot of limitations on what you can bring in and what you can't bring in. Just to give one illustration, not from the wine market, meat in this country can only be brought in if it's shechted by the shochtim of the chief rabbinate, which means that, excuse me for the analogy. You are tackling a subject that is like, wow. I mean, you're going straight for the jugular, meaning it's like you are attacking a subject that is very, very sensitive. I'm not, by the way, giving my opinion. I'm just describing it. The fact is that the Satmar Chassid in Monroe or in Kiryas Yoel, who was eating the Chassidus Sheshchita at a price of whatever, cannot be brought into Israel, even though it's maybe cheaper because of that law. Now, you have to understand that brings up the prices of meat because most of the meat is shechted outside of Israel, which means you're paying, every time you go to the supermarket, for the shochtim to fly, to be put up in a hotel, and obviously, shechita is complex. We're talking about a shochet, a bodek, and the tim. We're talking about prices going very, very high, unlike, say, if you were able to import meat in which it was at the highest level of kashrus. Albeit, all of that doesn't happen because it's much more local in America. So there's various limitations what can or can't be brought in. On the other hand, there are certain things that the Chief Rabbinate allows that say in America, most people don't eat. I'll give an example. People have asked me many a times about a certain kashrus that in America, most people stay away from, and in Israel, it says, be sure, Rabbanot ha-Rashid li-Israel. So there's a lot of limitations as to what you can bring in. At this point, Sohar has decided we are here to service the people of Israel. That's what we do in all of our activities, including kashrus. There's basically, that's what we're doing. We have ideas for the future, but a lot of laws have to change for that to become a reality. So ideally, if you had your druthers, where do you wanna be in the next five to 10 years? I'd like to see a situation in Israel in which private organizations of sorts, shapes, sizes, and standards, higher, lower, whatever it might be, all within halacha, obviously, are the ones that give supervision, and the chief rabbinate be the regulators. They'll be the ones that will say, there's certain regulations you have to follow in order for you to even give that service. This way, there would be competition, and our kashrus level would go up. To date, Israel is such that the only ones that can use the word kasher, kosher, is the chief rabbinate. So if you're a Haredi kashrus, a private kashrus, that does not rely on the chief rabbinate, you can use every word in the book, but you cannot say the word kosher. It's private, it's not national. Is that why they use the term badatz? For example, if you look at the kashrus of badatz, it will say, baashkachat ha-badatz ha-ida ha-haredit, you will not see the word kosher on their stamp. Everyone knows badatz means kosher, that's fine, but at the end of the day, I would love to see a situation where private organizations in proper competition are the ones that are giving the service of kashrus, and there's regulators above them called the chief rabbinate that decides, here's the regulations you have to follow to be one of them. That would be ideal from my perspective. We're not there yet. There was such a law. It was submitted to the Knesset a few years ago. Then, as Israel has it, the government fell, and ultimately that law became sort of on the books, but not on the books. I would love for that to happen. I would like to go into an establishment, see a ta'uda, on it it says exactly who's giving the kashrut, what the standards are, and I think it's only gonna bring up the level of kashrus in this country. If it will happen or not, it's really up to a lot of factors, politicians, other pressures, and whatnot. Yeah, there are many, many hashkachot on wine, and there are many bottles of wine that have many hashkachot on them, right? I can't take away from the marketing strategy and which group of people will only follow their ravz decisions and what have you. As far as that's concerned, I just wish there was more flexibility from specifically about this humrah, specifically about the concept of who's a Jew with regard to wine, and I'm so, so happy that you guys are taking it. You're bringing up one of the most important things that we've talked about today, and that is the fact that when it comes to wine, there's a lot of important things you have to remember producing wine, especially in Israel, with turmut and masrut being an issue, that all of a sudden to take a humrah will sometimes stop the wine industry from being kosher, not to mention putting out there wine that has many do'oraita and there are banan problems with it. And therefore, I think it's very important when you make a policy for wine to indeed think about this and not just about that. In other words, to think about the fact I want kosher wine on my table, not non-kosher wine on my table. I think that the fact that wines have five koshers on the back is always funny to me. Now, I have no problem whatsoever with what you just described. I have a Rebbe, and I have a certain shitta, and that's the wine I buy. That's for you and for your home, and as I said, that's wonderful. But it's a big problem when you have a whole industry of wine that's not kosher and for the wrong reasons. If it was for the right reasons, then it's for the right reasons. If a non-Jewish company came to us and said we would like to make wine, and we're gonna make the wine, and we're gonna touch the wine, we would not be able to give koshers. We're talking about a Jewish company, and ultimately. not only is it possible, you are going to gain so much on a personal level. You're going to stop violation of Shabbos from the workers. Not to mention, on the level of the country, you're going to have much more kosher wine put it out there. I never knew, for example, how much goes into wine. I thought, the Gemara says, there's a funny story about a guy who on Friday got to somewhere, his flight was delayed, he had to be there for Shabbos, he didn't know what to use for wine. So he called me on the phone, and I said, what's the big deal? The Gemara says, Sochet Adam Meshkol Shana Lavim, V'omer Olav Kiddush Hayom, go buy some grapes and squeeze them out. He called me back a half an hour, he said he bought more grapes than the Himalayas has snow, but you know how long it takes to squeeze out a cup? It's a proper process. So you understand that ultimately, what goes into making a bottle of wine is a lot. It's not just crushing the grapes and leaving it. There's ingredients that go in, you have to be very careful, you have to take it out and put it in and whatnot. It's very complex. Now, to make sure all those stages are kosher is also very complex. But when you finally have a bottle of wine, think about all the work that went into it. And then to say, wait, if a non-Jew touches it, I know it's not kosher. And let's expand that to the Jewish people, because of a hummer that's not even paschimed in Shulchan Aruch. And I say to myself, oh my gosh, if we do that, then everything else I just described from tithing to the ingredients, to the barrels, to everything that goes into wine is going to be lost. And it's too bad because wine is part and parcel of our Shabbos and Yontif. It's used at a Briss Milah and a Pidyon HaBen under the Chuppah. It's used at every single important event in Jewish life. Every single important event. There's almost no event that goes on. It's every week. It's every holiday, every event, we use wine. And as you know, wine could be destructive if you drink too much. And wine can be beautiful if you drink a little bit. And, you know, it can make and break. A Yontif meal, the Rambam says in Hilchot Yontif, Paragvav, Halachot Tetvav, that you should drink wine and eat meat on Yontif, to Mekayim Simchat Yontif. And then he warns you, don't think that whoever drinks more wine and eats more meat is doing a mitzvah. In other words, wine is a challenge in and of itself, to be careful on the one hand, but to enjoy it on the other. Because it's such a challenge, it's something that we have to provide and we have to provide it properly to the Jewish people and know that just like it's challenging to drink wine, it's challenging to make wine. And we have to be very sensitive to the winemakers and to the wineries that go out of their way to give us this beverage, which as you pointed out is so germane to the Jewish experience. That they really go out of their way to try to make this, the art, the experience that they want out of a bottle of wine is huge. I mean, I've seen many, many, many winemakers. I've been very close to a lot of them. There isn't one who basically makes wine for money. Every single one is trying to make wine to make something very special. And the ones who are making kosher wine are trying to make it special for Jews. And it's really amazing. So I thank you very much. I thank you very much for being here on the kosher terroir. I thank you for taking so much time to go through this with me. It was a sincere pleasure, Simon. Pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. And I hope that we should have more koshers in Israel, and more kosher wine in Israel. And Amir Tsar Hashem, it should always be able to be part and parcel of our Shabbos and Yontif tables and our celebrations. I just want to end with one little story that I just remembered. And just to let you know what it means to live in the complex world that we're living in. So I was a rabbi, as I said, in Halifax. And in between Mincha Meiriv, I was so happy to have a daily minion, I would give a little something like many rabbis do. And obviously I knew my crowd, so I always looked for sensational questions. I didn't just say, you know, when you put your feet together. So one of the questions that I dealt with was the following question, do you make a bracha on non-kosher food? And the question came from one of the congregants who said, I was at a meal that was not kosher, because I don't keep kosher. So just think of the reality. The person comes to minion, and he tells you right out, I don't keep kosher. And they were making kiddush Friday night, because it was kiddush time. And they were using non-kosher wine, should I have stopped him? Now, just to analyze that question halachically, not to mention emotionally, it's just mind boggling. I don't want that to happen in the land of Israel. I want the land of Israel to be a place where it's very hard to find non-kosher wine. And ultimately, I think that Sohar is doing its part to ensure that there's more kosher wine in Israel. So that question will never come up. Baruch Hashem. Thank you. Thank you, Simon, for hosting me. It was a pleasure to speak to you. Really a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for being on the Kosher Teruah. This is Simon Jacob, again, your host of today's episode of the Kosher Teruah. 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